1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:14,360
One of the things that Bruce was bringing out at concerning the project, Office, that

2
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,240
we were a closed shop, we weren't.

3
00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:24,920
We let people in and out of the place whenever they asked.

4
00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:37,720
And I gave a lot of interviews to newspaper people, a couple of people in the television

5
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:38,720
media.

6
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,520
Was there anything, as you remember talking about the openness, was there anything that

7
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:50,520
really came through that was secret that you couldn't let anybody know about?

8
00:00:50,920 --> 00:01:04,040
I can't remember the call because I was separated from the secret stuff.

9
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,040
The secret building.

10
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:11,880
I knew the guys and I talked to them and everything.

11
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:19,880
But I asked for favors whenever I needed to get them to do some work.

12
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:26,880
Because there was cooperation with them, but you were doing UFOs down here.

13
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,880
That's right.

14
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,880
They were doing real intelligence work.

15
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:39,960
But it bet some talk that there really were multiple investigations of UFOs and that Blue

16
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:41,960
Book was one of them.

17
00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:44,960
You find that as a case or what was it?

18
00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:57,960
I don't know that there was because I never had much to do with CIA and the CIA came on

19
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,960
later and they never bothered me at all.

20
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,960
I had very little contact with them.

21
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,960
I had your assignments, your cases.

22
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,960
You were pretty much open to do what you wanted to do with those.

23
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,960
Were you ever given, somebody once said, and I think I read it more than once, that you

24
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,960
were told, disprove all of this.

25
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:19,960
Both, sure.

26
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:20,960
Didn't happen.

27
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:27,960
No, I never had anybody tell me.

28
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:36,960
I never had anyone from the general at Sappoy on down to lie or deceive anyone about the

29
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:37,960
project.

30
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,960
Never.

31
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:39,960
They did.

32
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:47,960
They never, I don't know no one ever said you can't say this.

33
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,960
I guess your general's planning with this whole thing's coming.

34
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,960
He came out with a memo, which I think started the project.

35
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,960
Sign.

36
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,960
And with sign started and it was grudging the blue book.

37
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,960
His initial concept was, or thoughts according to the memo, that there were, how to make

38
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,960
sure that is right, that there were UFOs, they were real, they were metallic disc shaped

39
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,960
high performance craft beyond what we knew about at that particular point and it deserved

40
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,960
to be investigated.

41
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,960
Now, after all of the time that you spent at Blue Book, for his initial observations,

42
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:26,960
right or wrong?

43
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:39,960
Well, I never read the real memo, but I know the essence of what it said, but as far as

44
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:47,960
the flying saucers are concerned, it never proved to be correct.

45
00:03:47,960 --> 00:04:02,960
The stimulus, the stimuli of all of the cases we had, we never recovered or were able to

46
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:11,960
retrieve anything that looked like a starship or inter-intercollectic vehicle of an ensign.

47
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,960
That's what I was looking for.

48
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,960
I honestly thought I was going to find one, but I never did.

49
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,960
So, so the rubric is a bad starship being hidden at right hand?

50
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:24,960
Yeah.

51
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,960
You didn't see it?

52
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:27,960
No.

53
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:28,960
Absolutely not.

54
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,960
Now, a lot of attention has been focused, obviously, especially recently with the new

55
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,960
book on Roswell, on the Roswell case.

56
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:38,960
Yeah.

57
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,960
And you told me that when we were talking before, there really was a Roswell file.

58
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,960
There was a folder.

59
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:47,960
Okay.

60
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:57,960
A folder about as big as this with newspaper accounts of what transpired out at the ranch

61
00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,960
of wherever it was.

62
00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:09,960
But there was no formal correspondence that I could find with regards to Roswell.

63
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,960
Was there any decision being out of this paper?

64
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,960
You said there was a card in there.

65
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,960
Yeah, there was a card.

66
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,960
Every file had a card.

67
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,960
What was the evaluation of the case?

68
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,960
Because we had different categories.

69
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,960
Celestial, balloon, aircraft or whatever.

70
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:47,960
So in that particular file, the card stated that it was a balloon.

71
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:49,960
And that was the end of it.

72
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:50,960
Okay.

73
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,960
And again, the investigation has been lost by the GAO.

74
00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,960
I'm trying to find some things because there have been over the years allegations that the

75
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,960
Air Force covered up a lot of this.

76
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,960
And out of over 12,000 reports that you had, but I think I went through the numbers, there

77
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:14,960
were roughly 700 that were called unidentified, which works out that my math is right to about

78
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:15,960
6%.

79
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,960
That's pretty cool.

80
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:18,960
Yeah.

81
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:19,960
Okay.

82
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,960
Now when they say unidentified, why did you come up with that qualification?

83
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:24,960
What was it?

84
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,960
What do you think they were?

85
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,960
I never really thought too much about what they could have been.

86
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:40,960
I just didn't have enough information to place them in any particular category.

87
00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:50,960
Or you say this was an aircraft or a balloon or the planet Venus or Jupiter.

88
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,960
Those were two that used to come up and sprang it in the fall.

89
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,960
I said Jupiter and Venus, we chased all over the place.

90
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,960
But they're very powerful.

91
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,960
They're magnitude of minus two.

92
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:13,960
So they're real bright, especially when the moon is at a quarter.

93
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:23,960
But as the unidentified, we were never able to place specifically into a particular category

94
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,960
to say this was a planet, this was an aircraft or what have you.

95
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,960
How many years did you need your recognition of all those years?

96
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,960
Did you ever come across one that actually was, say a space capsule with a comeback?

97
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,960
And you were satisfied?

98
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,960
Because there was a lot of experience going on.

99
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:41,960
Space debris?

100
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:42,960
Yeah.

101
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:43,960
Oh yeah.

102
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:44,960
Yeah.

103
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,960
I used to look for those.

104
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:56,960
Actually I wanted to recover pieces and fragments and all those so that I could give them to the

105
00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,960
laboratory and let them do an intelligence analysis.

106
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,960
I picked up a couple of those but that's it.

107
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,960
And that's what I was always looking for.

108
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,960
Now when we looked through things, and I've gone through the Blue Book Report we've talked about before,

109
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,960
and it was an impressive list, a list of people that you said had been there, including Philadelphia,

110
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:19,960
more than once.

111
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,960
Yeah, I cracked the paper on this one.

112
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,960
Lots of people have been to Blue Book and have talked to you.

113
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,960
What did they really want to know?

114
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,960
They wanted to know everything about the program, how we were conducting the program,

115
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:46,960
what the analysis were, how many people were involved in the program, how we went about it.

116
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,960
And now we fell back on the Air Force Regulation.

117
00:08:51,960 --> 00:09:07,960
Back in the 60s we used to get all the bases involved with Air Force Regulation 200-2.

118
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:13,960
And that's the way they reported to Reich, they picked up the phone and said,

119
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:22,960
we got to spill it and then they sent the information through either the former report

120
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,960
or through teller time.

121
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:26,960
And then we did grind.

122
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,960
Did it go to you first or did it go to FTD first or who got it?

123
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,960
He used to come direct there to me.

124
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,960
And anything that came of D-R-O-O-O-S as you'd know about?

125
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:39,960
Yes.

126
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,960
What's your response to the charge, to all the good cases somebody went through at night

127
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,960
and took them out of your files and never shredded or something like that?

128
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,960
No matter who it is they had the colors to get in the building.

129
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,960
No, no, I don't think so.

130
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:54,960
Everything was there.

131
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:55,960
Yeah.

132
00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,960
So it was like I say, the room wasn't any bigger than this.

133
00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,960
When I first came up.

134
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:10,960
And one side of the room was a diabolical machine and we had all the records and they

135
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,960
ended up there from all the bases throughout the country.

136
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,960
But if they had something they reported.

137
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,960
That's a tough question for you to ask maybe, but when they pulled the plug on the little

138
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,960
book, was it a good idea or should it still be going on?

139
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,960
Or is there something like it's still going on?

140
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:40,960
I felt at the time, especially after Dr. Kahn submitted his report to the Air Force, that

141
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:56,960
it was time to close it because it had become a public relations office.

142
00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:04,960
We weren't doing any scientific investigations anymore.

143
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:11,960
And that was at the beginning exactly what purpose of the program was.

144
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:24,960
To see if we could find the stimuli that we could channel into research and develop so

145
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,960
that we could build one of our own.

146
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:35,960
Back in the days, Carl, we thought, even I thought because I was still going to college,

147
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:48,960
that these things that people were reporting were vehicles that were probably Russian or

148
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,960
German, how come they had them and we did?

149
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,960
But it didn't turn out that way.

150
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,960
If you had to do orbit, would you still do blow-boat the same way?

151
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,960
Oh, I'd love to.

152
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,960
Yeah, it was very interesting.

153
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:14,960
Like I say, when I first got into it, I was either testicle enough and young enough at

154
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:21,960
that time to think that I was going to find the answer to this puzzle.

155
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,960
I really thought it didn't turn out that way.

156
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,960
Well, with the GAO investigation now, are they going to find anything?

157
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,960
Is there a smoking gun buried somewhere?

158
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,960
There's no smoking gun that I can think of.

159
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:43,960
But the more I get away from the service, I understand all of these things that people

160
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,960
assume from here and the base there and this and that.

161
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:56,960
I don't know what's going on now, but as far as Blue Book is concerned, there's no smoking gun.

162
00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:12,960
No. Unfortunately, we never get to find anything that we could put our fingers on or an instrument of any kind.

163
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:24,960
I was always interested in that, especially the navigation of the so-called interstellar spaceships.

164
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,960
I say, how in the hell did they get here?

165
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,960
The navigation system would have been beautiful.

166
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,960
It would have had to have been.

167
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,960
But you never had it.

168
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,960
If one of them was brought to right path, would you have done about it?

169
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,960
I think so.

170
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,960
I knew enough people on the base.

171
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,960
Something like that would have come in, Carla.

172
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:56,960
They would, some way or other, they would have contacted me.

173
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,960
A lot more people knew me than I knew them.

174
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:08,960
And then it was the office, especially when they moved out to the little shack out at 275.

175
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,960
I used to get a lot of visitors there.

176
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,960
They could walk in and out without any problem.

177
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,960
No, we didn't even visit her, though.

178
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,960
No.

179
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:23,960
In one case, and then this was a book, and you can buy 9,000 books, you could give you a list.

180
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,960
In this particular case, this is one by Kevin Randall.

181
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:35,960
But they were talking about a tape that had gone into, it was 1952, like 50-52, whatever in that range.

182
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:42,960
And there was a tape that was turned into the Air Force for examination on Mariana.

183
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,960
It was a Montana film, I guess.

184
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,960
And apparently he said that they turned into a tape, and then they got the tape back to the film.

185
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,960
Back were some sequences missing, they were really good parts.

186
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,960
But you got evidence.

187
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,960
I guess that's the best we were able to do.

188
00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,960
Yeah.

189
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:00,960
And you returned it.

190
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,960
Was it returned exactly the same condition?

191
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:03,960
Exactly, yes.

192
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:04,960
Nothing was ever done to you?

193
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:13,960
Yeah, and if I wanted a copy of it, I would ask the person who submitted it if I could make a copy.

194
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,960
And they keep the copy.

195
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,960
But I don't remember ever doing that.

196
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:25,960
I did that with a couple of photos, but appeared to be in distance.

197
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:26,960
But...

198
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,960
That's interesting, but use the word interesting.

199
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960
Did you ever see one photo that really...

200
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:32,960
That you couldn't explain.

201
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:38,960
But you said, aha, this could be one of those extraterrestrial vehicles we were looking for.

202
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,960
No, I never did.

203
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:58,960
I've seen a lot of interesting photos, but nothing like what I would have thought, or would come to mind of being a spaceship of any kind.

204
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,960
I guess you did it this way before we were out on tape.

205
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,960
I want to make sure we get it in.

206
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,960
Back to Blue Book, and you were very open with Blue Book.

207
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,960
You said there's been accusations that the government has been less than open on a lot of things.

208
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:13,960
Yes.

209
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:21,960
Should the government be open on something like this, or is it so sensitive that indeed parts of it should be kept secret?

210
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,960
How open should you be as it is a government?

211
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:39,960
Well, I'm sure that there are research and development projects that are going along at a normal pace,

212
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:56,960
but should they kept secret until the development is at the stage where they could become operational.

213
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,960
But should they keep something secret if we got an extraterrestrial craft?

214
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:01,960
No.

215
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:02,960
No.

216
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,960
I don't think you could.

217
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:17,960
I was making a statement that if one of me landed a right paddler, is it the first thing I'd do?

218
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,960
I'd procure a flatbed.

219
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:32,960
I said I personally would drive it up to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and say, Mr. Pernod, I present you with a spaceship.

220
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,960
I really thought that one day I might be able to do that.

221
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,960
I haven't been able to do that up to now.

222
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:49,960
No, I don't think that you should keep that kind of information away from the public.

223
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:50,960
No.

224
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,960
So your answer is to the critics and say that this is all big, a big cover up?

225
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,960
You were on the inside.

226
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,960
No, I never covered up anything.

227
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:01,960
That is a tough one, man.

228
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,960
No, I never had to.

229
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,960
It was fascinating.

230
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,960
You tell people the truth, yes.

231
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,960
You tell people the truth and they don't believe you.

232
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:25,960
And sometimes you get into yourself in trouble with witnesses or observers.

233
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:33,960
Call them observers because they submit something which they truthfully can't identify.

234
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:43,960
And because of their patriotic sense, they think they should report it to the Air Force.

235
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,960
And they're honest about it.

236
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:55,960
And sometimes when you give them the answer of your analysis of the stimuli that they observe,

237
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,960
they don't believe you, which is all right.

238
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,960
Not everybody knows everything.

239
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:09,960
You try to duplicate the weather and what have you.

240
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,960
You can't put it in the laboratory.

241
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,960
It's impossible.

242
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:19,960
But sometimes people get kind of irked about it.

243
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:31,960
There's that type of information like things about how the program got started and the people that visited the program.

244
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:32,960
I came across it.

245
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,960
I'm glad you were working on it.

246
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:36,960
I had lost this thing.

247
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,960
I finally found it in one of the boxes in my apartment.

248
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,960
I'm going to ask you this one because we talked about it before.

249
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,960
And it's not the one I record.

250
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,960
But in one of the things I had talked about, I wonder if it was in this thing or what it was.

251
00:19:51,960 --> 00:20:00,960
The only thing I could think of was that at the time that they were doing the report,

252
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:13,960
but Cal got involved and but Cal, I don't think really wanted to be associated with the Air Force or haven't been worked for.

253
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,960
That's the feeling I got in talking to people about it.

254
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,960
They got paid, but that's all they wanted to acknowledge.

255
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:24,960
Thank you.

256
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:25,960
I think it would be very helpful.

257
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:26,960
Thank you for that stuff.

258
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:27,960
Thank you.